So many subjects were touched in an introduction thread!

(27-11-2018, 02:40 PM)twee Wrote: i have tried vi before, i might try it again because it's more of a necessary skill (I think) than emacs, and because it goes with my xresources better ;)

I do agree it's a necessary skill depending on what you need to achieve, especially if you do server configuration or you work in an operation/sysadmin team. Most of the time you won't have the option to impose what comes installed on the machines or what should be installed, be it for security purposes or because it's not needed. So you have to stick with what comes by default, and what comes by default on most OS the operation team deploy on thousands of servers is usually vi. That's from the practical, skill, way of seeing this.

However I agree with z3bra:

(28-11-2018, 07:34 PM)z3bra Wrote: Better don't assume anything to be available anywhere at all.

There is so much of everything on Unix-like systems and so many differences, which in my opinion makes the beauty of it, adding choices. While at the same time there's a base standard, POSIX, that is somehow and sometimes followed to a certain degree. So you have a baseline.

(29-11-2018, 04:46 AM)twee Wrote: pretty sure arch doesnt come with ed either, because it "If Arch included all the crap that every user considers part of a "standard" *nix system, it wouldn't be Arch" according to one forum post.

(29-11-2018, 10:57 AM)z3bra Wrote: From the POSIX standards tools definitions the standards are ed, ex and vi ;)

(29-11-2018, 02:25 PM)z3bra Wrote: I think that you can rely on vi being available whenever you use an OS that claims to be "POSIX compliant", and that's why today I consider the ability to "save & quit" in vi one of the basic skills of any linux sysadmin.
Also, vi is some minimal stuff! As you praise graphical interfaces so much, I can't believe you'd vote for ed as the defacto standard for text editing.

Now, you've even touched the "Linux is not Unix" usual talk and the "We need to move on from the past interfaces, they're too old".

(29-11-2018, 09:56 AM)z3bra Wrote: Computing has changed a huge lot since them, be it in terms of interface, goals or user base.

(29-11-2018, 10:06 AM)jkl Wrote: But that's what most people on nixers do as well, happily creating a "week in the TTY" on whatever "Unix-like" system, being stuck in the past with "terminals" which deliberately imitate 1978's VT100 hardware. They won't move on.

(29-11-2018, 10:57 AM)z3bra Wrote: Well, the week in the TTY is mostly a fun challenge, pretty much like people that are into cars go to a rally with their car for 1920. They don't expect to win. They hope to finish the race :P

(29-11-2018, 12:13 PM)z3bra Wrote: Text is still a good human-to-machine interface (IMO, better than sound for example, or pictograms), and POSIX defines its standards around this interface.

From my perspective all kinds of interfaces have pros and cons, there should be a balance between all depending on the needs and aims.
I've shared this link in the newsletter before about the keyboard vs mouse research. There's a lot of this around but the debate continues while today we are facing many other types of interfaces such as voice, movement, sensors, etc..

As far as the week in the TTY is concerned, that's a challenge to get accustomed with terminals and textual interfaces for those that usually avoid it or simply want to see if they would be able to achieve it. If you want to associate it with being stuck in the past it's your choice of wording. For others it may simply be forcing yourself to surpass what you usually do, similar to running a marathon.

And to link back to the previous topic of text editors, servers don't usually come installed with a graphical environment by default and such programs are avoided for many reasons. Textual interfaces still have their place on such machines. Just check the list of the top 10 most powerful supercomputer or biggest server farms.