Hello *nixers... While I was fooling around with node.js today, I found myself signing up for a wordpress account when I made yet another Gravatar account. (I keep forgetting the logins)

Since I have this free blog, I figured that Unix Hub certainly deserved a spot where I could extoll the virtues of this fine community.

Linked above (in the spoiler) is the blurb.

Feel free to leave comments, suggestions, and, or, curses and vitriol.

The layout is broken :)

Actually, the image is too big... I'll fix it now.

I also have a blog! There is only one post on there right now, but I plan on making weekly posts about security, *nix, tutorials, etc. Blog.

kopri, your blog is so much more informative, as well as professional...
I'm adding your blog to my list, as well as linking to it from my zygotblog.

Cheers!

Why thank you very much!

kopri, your blog looks great! Enjoying Pelican?

Yeah I was having some issues with it, when I used the makefile the theme would not apply. Now I'm using the pelican command and things are working great!

Finally a place for it ! Meet monochromatic, my brand new blog. I hope you guys will like it. It's pretty young so there are only 3 posts atm. But I'll try to post at least one article per month.

Enjoy : http://blog.z3bra.org

Your blog looks nice!

Thanks, I worked hard on the design as it's done by hand :)

Since I can't comment over there..
> http://blog.z3bra.org/2013/09/java-without-eclipse.html

Quote:YOU. DON'T. NEED. ECLIPSE. AT ALL.

Meh. I agree to some amount, but... have you ever worked on a big Java [Enterprise] project?
No sane mind would want to do that without an IDE. Have you done some major refactoring before? Like modifying an interface with 50 or even 500+ references in the project or implementing/extending classes?

The workspace of the project at work contains over 25k *.java files. Admittedly, that contains the source of our internal framework (~5k files) and some currently not deployed/unused components.

I've written some Java without Eclipse, but if you are used to it and know many of the shortcuts then you are way faster. And although I know a good part of the Java standard library by heart, using auto-complete saves me a lot of time. Especially when you already know what's coming and you hit the corresponding shortcut before the list even pops up :P

/mini-rant

ne0phyte Wrote:Since I can't comment over there..
> http://blog.z3bra.org/2013/09/java-without-eclipse.html

Yeah, It's just plain HTML. I don't want to bother with PHP or externalize comments. I prefer other conventinnal meant of communication to debate on my opinions :)

ne0phyte Wrote:Meh. I agree to some amount, but... have you ever worked on a big Java [Enterprise] project?
No sane mind would want to do that without an IDE. Have you done some major refactoring before? Like modifying an interface with 50 or even 500+ references in the project or implementing/extending classes?

I must say that I have not. And I'm not saying that my method would be better than using an IDE. But it's doable (even if painfull :p)

ne0phyte Wrote:The workspace of the project at work contains over 25k *.java files. Admittedly, that contains the source of our internal framework (~5k files) and some currently not deployed/unused components.

I maintain what I said. You DON'T need eclipse (or any other IDE). But I agree that it will be really painfull to work with this project without a proper IDE, for a few reasons:

* Your project was (i guess) initiated and made for a particular IDE, so it can be hard to manage it with your UNIX IDE.
* These are not one-shot project, so everything is linked to everything (I wish I'll never work with something like that)
* Java is (as I see it) made to be developped under specific IDEs. With pre-made plugin for testing, branching, etc...
* Project is ever set up when you join it.

As long as you don't start from scratch, the method I describe is REALLY hard to implement. Because everything is setup to work with the IDE, and not with specific tools. Also, writing a Makefile for a 5k .java file seems impossible. But If you start from a basic Makefile, and add targets / files when you create 'em, it's easier. It probably take more time than cliking "build & run", but if I can do it with my poor java knowledge, you probably can do it too :)

ne0phyte Wrote:I've written some Java without Eclipse, but if you are used to it and know many of the shortcuts then you are way faster. And although I know a good part of the Java standard library by heart, using auto-complete saves me a lot of time. Especially when you already know what's coming and you hit the corresponding shortcut before the list even pops up :P

Same for me, but with vim :) (but I can"t argue that I know Java libs by heart haha)

Anyway, I agree that this method does not suit everybody, and that it can be painfull most of the time. But it is , imho, the price to using your own tools.
Yes, it is harder, but at least, you have full control on what you do. The same goes for your graphical environment for exemple. Setting up Xorg + WM + shortcuts + programs is much more longer and harder than just installing Gnome and getting used to it. But hey, do you run Gnome ?

(14-10-2013, 09:09 AM)z3bra Wrote: As long as you don't start from scratch, the method I describe is REALLY hard to implement. Because everything is setup to work with the IDE, and not with specific tools. Also, writing a Makefile for a 5k .java file seems impossible. But If you start from a basic Makefile, and add targets / files when you create 'em, it's easier. It probably take more time than cliking "build & run", but if I can do it with my poor java knowledge, you probably can do it too :)

We are using Ant and we have some pretty complex build scripts, too. In fact we have one guy per project who is dedicated to the maintenance of the build server and the build scripts. The Eclipse config, launch/debug/build configuratoins and everything that belongs to the projects is installed with a script and can be updated from a local SVN server.

(14-10-2013, 09:09 AM)z3bra Wrote: Yes, it is harder, but at least, you have full control on what you do. The same goes for your graphical environment for exemple. Setting up Xorg + WM + shortcuts + programs is much more longer and harder than just installing Gnome and getting used to it. But hey, do you run Gnome ?

That's a different kind of thing. You can't really get a fully customized WM/DE without fiddling around and doing things on your own. In fact I just started writing my own WM :P

When it comes to building such a huge project it's not like we just let Eclipse do its thing. We build everything using custom Ant scripts except for the client side code, but even that can be build with an Ant script.
We let eclipse re-build changed files so that they (in the best case) get hot-deployed during development without a restart or full build of the client.

Can't you just use Ant on its own ? I don't think it ise IDE realated. For sure, Eclipse have a plugin for that, but it also have a plugin for git, which is usable WITHOUT Eclipse. Here's is what a quick search led me to: Running Apache Ant. I can be wrong, as I never used Ant before.

Again, I'm not a Java expert. I don't even have achieved my studies. But from what I saw, you can use your own tools for everything. If you're forced to use this or that, then I don't think it is worth it.

Also, If building a project and having a customized environment are pretty much the same IMO. You use a bunch of tools and you make it interact smoothly.

* You take source files and compile them into an executable file. But you can use an IDE to do that
* You take programs, and integrate them in your environment. But you can use a premade DE to do that
* You take ingredients, and you make a cake. But you can use pre-made cake and just warm it
* You take seeds, and make them grow a tree toeat fruits. But you can buy an ever-grown tree, or just the fruits.

I mean, the result is the same of course. But in one case, it's harder/longer to reach it. the real interest is the feelings you'll have when saying "I did that". You'll feel it when using your own WM, I'm sure of that ^^

Yes you can run Ant without Eclipse. What I meant was, that we have launch configurations to run our build scripts out of Eclipse.
While that doesn't tie us to Eclipse, the plugins we use do. That includes a custom one that belongs to our framework to generate components.

We do have a custom environment after all, just not a lightweight one. But there's either a full blown IDE or just an editor. Eclipse has it's own Java parser so it actually understands what you are doing. It knows exactly what kind of instance/object you're trying to call a method on and provides suggestions. It can, for example, instantly show you all inheriting classes of the current class or all classes that call a certain method of a certain interface. The list is endless :P

The real time warnings/errors as you type are very helpful, too. Imagine having a build time of ~15 minutes for the whole project (server+client+deploy to JBoss) on a Core i7 + SSD and it fails half way through because you somehow forgot a semicolon :P

Yeah I totally understand your point. I think that if I were you, I would have done the same thing, because it's much much easier, and in the name of productivity, you just CAN'T loose time for pride.

But for single personnal projects, I'd avoid being dependent on anything rather than a text editor, and a compiler. Would you imagine that ? An opensource package asking you to install Eclipse to build it from source ?

You know, for the project we created (a sort of IRC chat, simplified), I made the choice to not use Eclipse at all. Things wen pretty well once I had my Makefile setup ! Just take a look: jirc. Fork it, "make" it, run it. I like how simple it make the whole process. And of course, it is Eclipse compliant (I didn't want to forced my mate to go without Eclipse like me. Ah, freedom...).

Also, I learnt A LOT by building this Makefile. Why would you care about what a classpath is if Eclipse handle it for you ? How do you deal with packages if nobody does this for you ?

IMHO, it's okay to use any automation tools. But you must consider doing it only once you tried to do it by hand, so that you know what you are delegating.