Hello fellow nixers,
This thread is for the discussion surrounding the development of the nixers radio project.

A lot have been requesting that we setup a sort of streaming of music where members can share the cool music they listen to. This is what we're going to do here.

There are many solution available for streaming such as icecast, youtube, and ffmpeg server mode.

I can offer some place on the servers to install one of those streaming services or if anyone is feeling like offering space then it's also cool.

Let's talk about which one you'd prefer and if you would participate in such endeaviour.

I've never dealt with any streaming at all but if you need a music list you know where to find one ;)

About then 10 years ago I did some streaming using Shoutcast and Winamp; Icecast looks like the best (and more interesting) alternative to me. I'll set up a test server locally this weekend for then helping out rolling one here.

The way I run a radio on my lan is with mpd's http streaming output option. I think that might be easiest, and it doesn't require a special client to listen to it. Typically I just use mpg123 http://lanserver:8000.

I've got mpd http server streaming up on my server but I'm not sure of how it would be feasibly to share the control of the stream between certain members.

Maybe we could create users on the server that have access to an mpd client that connects to it.

I'll just throw in the possibility of a irc-bot to control the stream. Not that I have any experience in developing one, but that would remove the necesity of creating multiple users on the server.

Seems not to be too hard: https://pythonspot.com/en/building-an-irc-bot/

(13-06-2017, 03:39 AM)mrtn Wrote: I'll just throw in the possibility of a irc-bot to control the stream. Not that I have any experience in developing one, but that would remove the necesity of creating multiple users on the server.

I haven't thought of that, it seems like a good option and everyone has built an IRC bot before.
We'd have an invite only channel for the DJs of the radio.

But there also need a way to upload the music to the server so that they can be added to the list.
And I'm not sure about copyrights and related issues.

I wouldn't go that route. You'll open yourself for all kinds of copyright claims... Can't we just submit links to youtube and it streams sound-only via the radio station?

I have some experience with ffmpeg's ffserver. The project is abandoned by the ffmpeg team but I'm still running a setup that can do webm livestreaming with relative ease. I've only messed with the mp3 option a bit but it would be doable to pipe audio (youtube-dl) to ffmpeg -> ffserver.

The biggest problem with ffserver/mpd over more traditional shoutcasting services is you'll have no option of adding another source (i.e. a mic for the dj) short of mixing those 2 sources locally and then streaming them off to ffserver/mpd.

(13-06-2017, 05:54 AM)azk Wrote: The biggest problem with ffserver/mpd over more traditional shoutcasting services is you'll have no option of adding another source (i.e. a mic for the dj) short of mixing those 2 sources locally and then streaming them off to ffserver/mpd.

I don't think we'd like that option anyway.
We're only going to stream music sequentially.

I run an online radio as well (http://radio.z3bra.org:8000), and have the controlling part listening on a VPN. It could work this way for restricting access to a fistful of members

(13-06-2017, 07:53 AM)z3bra Wrote: I run an online radio as well (http://radio.z3bra.org:8000), and have the controlling part listening on a VPN. It could work this way for restricting access to a fistful of members

What's the backend and how do you add new musics to the list (upload)?

Ah sorry, forgot to say it's mpd with http streaming. Adding music is done via scp in my case, but on another server (music library is mounted via NFS)

Accessing the NFS share could be done on the VPN as well, this way users could upload and fully control the radio when connected

Something nice could be to use a FS distributed between users. When connected, their music folder would be mounted automatically (using something like overlayfs, but over the network), amd added to the playlist (which would play random songs)

(13-06-2017, 05:35 PM)z3bra Wrote: Accessing the NFS share could be done on the VPN as well, this way users could upload and fully control the radio when connected

Something nice could be to use a FS distributed between users. When connected, their music folder would be mounted automatically (using something like overlayfs, but over the network), amd added to the playlist (which would play random songs)

I had thought about more or less the same thing but locally: To have symlinks in the mpd "music_directory" pointing to directories in the home of ever other users that have access.

A VPN and NFS sounds cool but again what about copyrights issues?

Copyrights on the musoc library you mean? as in, preventing users to copy the music from others on their computer?

(14-06-2017, 04:48 AM)z3bra Wrote: Copyrights on the musoc library you mean? as in, preventing users to copy the music from others on their computer?

Yes, that's part of the issue and also we don't want to deal with the illegal sharing of music.

That's why mrtn said:

(13-06-2017, 04:49 AM)mrtn Wrote: I wouldn't go that route. You'll open yourself for all kinds of copyright claims... Can't we just submit links to youtube and it streams sound-only via the radio station?

Maybe something similar to:
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=180478

With a related private IRC channel where user posts links of youtube music videos.

Is that the way we should start building it?
If yes then it shouldn't be hard to put together, we'll only have to create a channel and an IRC bot that manages the playlist.

(14-06-2017, 04:58 AM)venam Wrote: With a related private IRC channel where user posts links of youtube music videos.

how i see it,
if you mean it like compiling a playlist with youtube links like this [1],[2] would be ok.
if you want to stream from youtube as an audiosource to feed a 3rd party programm for providing a stream with it, that would be against the youtube terms of service [3] and maybe also against the fair use policy [4].


[1] https://codepen.io/vitapluvia/pen/sADnp
[2] http://www.youtubeplaylist.org/
[3] https://www.youtube.com/static?template=terms
[4] https://www.youtube.com/yt/copyright/fair-use.html

I don't even think you got the right to stream any music online publicly. Even if you bought a CD or whatever.
Companies like spotify or last.fm pay fees to whichever organisation ask for it.

Now, should we care? I mean, my online radio is for me in the first place, but it happens to be available to wichever knows the address. Could I be arrested for that?

EDIT: Found this to explain radio licensing: https://radio.co/blog/do-i-need-a-licens...net-radio/

(14-06-2017, 08:38 AM)z3bra Wrote: Now, should we care? I mean, my online radio is for me in the first place, but it happens to be available to wichever knows the address. Could I be arrested for that?

i think you're good.

"In October 2009, France's highest constitutional court approved the HADOPI law, a "three-strikes law"; however, the law was revoked on 10 July 2013 by the French Government because the punitive penalties imposed on copyright infringers was considered to be disproportionate."

compared to germany:

"In Germany, file sharing is illegal and even one copyrighted file downloaded through BitTorrent can trigger €1000 fines or more. The GEMA also used to block many YouTube videos."

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspe...le_sharing

(14-06-2017, 09:25 AM)jvarg Wrote: "In October 2009, France's highest constitutional court approved the HADOPI law, a "three-strikes law"; however, the law was revoked on 10 July 2013 by the French Government because the punitive penalties imposed on copyright infringers was considered to be disproportionate."

compared to germany:

"In Germany, file sharing is illegal and even one copyrighted file downloaded through BitTorrent can trigger €1000 fines or more. The GEMA also used to block many YouTube videos."

Well, then... uhmm, it's getting quite complex.

It's going to be a radio but only the listener can choose to listen to it or not according to where he/she lives?

Well, HADOPI still exists in France, but it is less problematic that it was. Also, it only concerns illegal downloads, not streaming media.

Get caught downloading something once, you receive a letter asking you to stop.
Get caught downloading something again, you receive a second letter.
Get caught downloading something AGAIN, well, third letter, amd perhaps a fee (not a big one though)

(14-06-2017, 09:44 AM)venam Wrote: It's going to be a radio but only the listener can choose to listen to it or not according to where he/she lives?

for my understanding, it does not matter where the listener is located, according to this [1] (from 2013) [2] (from 2010) the physical server/datacenter location decides about jurisdiction.

[1] http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/u..._computer/
[2] https://www.out-law.com/page-11561

So it does not suffice if the domain is in some state with lax copyright laws it is actual the physical server location... Hm, that makes it really hard to get a good setup... Thanks for supplying the information, jvarg!

(14-06-2017, 04:22 PM)mrtn Wrote: that makes it really hard to get a good setup

If i'm not wrong here, it makes it quite easy. There are a lot of options regarding server location for a VPS at DO/VULTR one can choose... and since a domain name does not change the physical location of a server it does not matter at all.

EDIT: seems like cloud hosting is another thing..
"In a scenario where a non-U.S. data center is operated by an entity that is under the effective control of an entity subject to U.S. jurisdiction, then the entity subject to U.S. jurisdiction typically cannot refuse to comply with the law enforcement request on the basis that the data is held in a data center located outside of the United States." [1]

[1] http://www.hldataprotection.com/2014/08/...ed-abroad/

How about an onion service then? I think that could be a useful solution in regards to jurisdiction enforcement

I've been using MPD's HTTP output to provide internet radio to some friends, and it works very nicely.

The configuration is pretty minimal compared to Icecast/ffserver; it's just another output definition in MPD's configuration (I'm happy to share what I have, if wanted).

In terms of synchronizing multiple libraries, I know a few people who have had luck with a similar setup + NFS shares.